An Interview in London with His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, from Back To Godhead, Vol. I, No. 55, 1973.

Prabhupada: Are you under the impression that spiritual life means voluntarily accepting poverty? Do you think like that?

 

Interviewer: Well, I don't, but I only thought that

Interview To Srila Prabhupada

 

Prabhupada: A poverty-stricken man may be most materialistic, and a wealthy man may be very spiritual. Spiritual life does not depend on one's living in poverty or wealth. Spiritual life is different. Consider Arjuna, for instance. Arjuna was a member of the royal family, and in Bhagavad-gita Sri Krsna said: evam parampara praptam imam rajarsayo viduh: "This supreme science was received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way." (Bg. 4.2) In the past all kings who were saintly understood this spiritual life. Therefore spiritual life does not depend on one's material condition. A person may be a king or a pauper whatever his material condition may be, he can still understand spiritual life. Generally people do not know what spiritual life is, and they unnecessarily criticize us because they have no knowledge of spiritual life. If I asked you whether you. know what spiritual life is, how would you answer?

 

Interviewer: Well, I

 

Prabhupada: Because they do not know what spiritual life is, they unnecessarily say, "It is this," or "It is that." But first of all one should know what spiritual life is. Spiritual life begins when you understand that you are not this body. That is the real beginning of spiritual life. One thus comes to understand that, "I am spirit soul." The exact Sanskrit term for this realization is aham brahmasmi. "Iam spirit soul."

 

Interviewer: Yes, but how can one actually determine who is a cheater and who is not?

 

Prabhupada: For that we have to become a little expert. If a person is a mechanic, he can understand things mechanical, and he can understand who is a valid mechanic. If you have no knowledge of machines, then how can you detect whether this man is a mechanic or not? So some little knowledge is required. If you want to purchase gold and know nothing about gold, then how can you understand whether this is gold or some other ore?

 

Interviewer: So how can people understand about a guru?

 

Prabhupada: You have to be expert in spiritual knowledge. Then you can understand. Otherwise you will simply be cheated. People are being cheated because they have no spiritual understanding, education.

 

Interviewer: Do you think there are many phoney gurus?

 

Prabhupada: Well, there may be many, but there are also many genuine ones. It is not that because there is some counterfeit money there is no genuine money. Both of them are there. You simply have to select whether one is counterfeit or not. I may give you a hundred dollar note, but if you do not know what is genuine, you will be cheated. Therefore it is up to you to find out what is counterfeit and what is genuine.

 

Interviewer: But how can you find out?

 

Prabhupada: That means you have to be qualified also.

 

A Disciple: Once I remember John Lennon asked you, "How will I know who is the genuine guru?" And you answered, "Just find out the one who is most addicted to Krsna. He is genuine."

 

Prabhupada: But if someone does not know Krsna, then how can he find out who is most addicted to Him? That is the test for one who is already aware of Krsna. But if one is not aware of Krsna, God, how can he find out? That depends on his fortune. If he is fortunate, he comes in contact with a genuine guru.

 

Interviewer: That is why I was asking about the Rolls Royce and the penthouse suites because that was a very simple way for a learner to be able to say, "Well, this man is in a Rolls Royce, so therefore

 

Prabhupada: That is not the test. Suppose a genuine guru is riding in a Rolls Royce. Do you think that just because he is in that car he is not genuine?

 

Interviewer: No, but

 

Srila Prabhupada Walking with Devotees

 

Prabhupada: Then why are you making this the test? First of all you have to accept that your position is that you do not know the test. Because you do not know, you conclude, "Oh, this man is going in a Rolls Royce. Therefore he is not genuine." But that is the wrong conclusion. You should know what is genuine. The genuine guru may go in a Rolls Royce or on foot, but that doesn't matter. What you have to test is whether or not he is genuine, and that will require your qualification. My point is that people are not given any spiritual education. Therefore they cannot understand what is genuine and what is not.

 

Interviewer: How do you think people should be educated then?

 

Prabhupada: People should first be taught what they are. Are they the body or something else? That is the beginning of education. Now everybody is being educated to think that he is this body. Because one accidentally gets an American body, he thinks, "I am an American." This is just like thinking, "I am red," just because you are wearing a red shirt. You are neither red, nor black nor white. You are a human being. Similarly, this body is considered to be a dress or a shirt or coat. If we simply recognize ourselves by our shirt and coat, then we have no spiritual education.

 

Interviewer: Do you think that such education should be given in schools?

 

Prabhupada: Yes, in schools, colleges, universities. There is an immense literature on this subject, an immense fund of knowledge. But the people are not interested. We are publishing many books, and we can publish many thousands more like them, but people are interested in cheap novels and other books. They may read newspapers, but if we present some philosophical book they are not interested in reading it. They have lost all their taste.

 

Interviewer: Presumably if spiritual education were given in schools then we wouldn't have to worry about this problem.

 

Prabhupada: Yes, that is so. What is required is that the leaders of society come forward to understand this movement. It is up to you to find out what is counterfeit and what is genuine. It is not a question of quantity but of quality.

 

Interviewer: Have you ever had people come to you who have been previously to a fake guru?

 

Prabhupada: Yes, there are many.

 

Interviewer: And what has happened? Have they had their spiritual lives in any way spoiled by the fake gurus?

 

Prabhupada: No, they are seeking something, and that is their qualification. As soon as one is genuinely seeking, God, who is within everyone's heart, helps.

 

Interviewer: I wonder if the real gurus like yourself have ever tried in any way to put a stop to the false gurus that is, put pressure on them to put them out of business, so to speak.

 

Prabhupada: No, that was not my purpose. I started my movement simply by chanting Hare Krsna. I chanted in New York in a place called Tompkins Square Park, and gradually people began to come to me. So this Krsna consciousness movement gradually began to develop. Many accepted, and many did not accept. Those who are fortunate have accepted.

 

Interviewer: Don't you feel that people are suspicious because of their experience with bad gurus? If you went to a bad dentist and he broke your tooth, you might be suspicious about going to another.

 

Prabhupada: Yes, naturally if one is cheated, he becomes suspicious. But this does. not mean that if one is cheated once, he will always be cheated. He should find out something genuine. Either one must be fortunate or well aware of this science. FromBhagavad-gita we understand that the genuine seekers are very few. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye. Out of many millions of people there may be only one who is interested in spiritual life. Generally people are interested in eating, sleeping, mating and defending. So how can we expect to find many followers? First of all it is not difficult to notice that people have lost their spiritual interest. Those who are actually interested are all being cheated by so-called spiritualists. You cannot judge a movement simply by the number of its followers. If one man is genuine, then the movement is successful. It is not a question of quantity but quality.

 

Interviewer: I just wondered whether you knew that there are hundreds or thousands of people who have turned up with the wrong guru. I wondered how many people you think might have been taken in

 

Prabhupada: Practically everyone. (laughter) There is no question of numbering. Everyone.

 

Interviewer: So this would be thousands of people, wouldn't it?

 

Prabhupada: Millions. Millions have been cheated because they want to be cheated. God is omniscient. He can understand. He is within your heart, and if you want to be cheated, God sends you a cheater.

 

Interviewer: Do you think it is possible for everyone to attain the perfectional stage you spoke of previously? Is it possible for everyone?

 

Prabhupada: Within a second. Anyone can attain perfection within a second provided he is willing. The difficulty is that no one is willing. For instance, in Bhagavad-gita Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: "Simply surrender unto Me." But who is going to surrender to God? Everyone says, "Oh, why should I surrender to God? I will be independent." If you simply surrender, it is a second's business. That's all. But no one is willing, and that is the difficulty.

 

Interviewer: When you say that lots of people want to be heated, do you mean that lots of people want to carry on with their worldly pleasures and at the same time, by chanting a mantra or by holding a flower, think that they can achieve spiritual life as well? Is this what you mean by wanting to be cheated?

 

Lecture in Radha Krishna Temple in London

 

Prabhupada: Yes, this is like a patient thinking, "I shall continue with my disease, and at the same time I shall become healthy." It is contradictory. The first requirement is that one become educated in spiritual life. Spiritual life is not something one can understand by a few minutes' talk. There are many philosophy and theology books, but people are not interested in them. That is the difficulty. For instance, Srimad-Bhagavatam is a very long work, and if you try to read this book it may take many days just to understand one line of it. The Bhagavatam describes God, the Absolute Truth, but people are not interested. In the present age people are disturbed in so many ways. If, by chance, one becomes a little interested, he wants something immediate and cheap. Therefore he is cheated. Actually human life is meant for austerity and penance. That is the way of Vedic civilization. They first used to train boys up as brahmacaris,and no sex life was allowed at all, up to the age of twenty-five. Where is that education? A brahmacari is a student who lives a life of complete celibacy and obeys the commands of his guru at thegurukula. Now schools and colleges are teaching sex from the very beginning, and twelve or thirteen-year-old boys and girls are having sex, so how can they have a spiritual life?

 

Interviewer: I am told that in India you are the most sought after guru. I take it that this means you are a genuine guru and have all the knowledge

 

Prabhupada: How do you know that I am genuine? (laughter) What makes you think that I am genuine and another is not?

 

Interviewer: I don't know that you are. I know only that you say you are and that what you say seems to make sense.

 

Prabhupada: First of all I will give you some preliminary idea. The genuine guru is God's representative, and he'll speak about God and nothing else. The genuine guru is he who has no interest in materialistic life. He is after God and God only. That is one of the tests of a genuine guru.

 

Brahma-nistham. He is absorbed in the Absolute Truth. In theMundakopanisad it is stated, srotriyam brahma-nistham. "The genuine guru is well versed in the scriptures and Vedic knowledge, and he is completely dependent on Brahman." One should know what is Brahman and how one is situated in Brahman. These signs are given in the Vedic literature. As stated before, the real guru is God's representative. He represents the Supreme Lord just as a viceroy represents a king. The real guru will not manufacture anything. Everything he says is in accordance with the scriptures and the previous acaryas. He will not give you a flower and tell you that you will be God in six months. This is not a guru's business. A guru's business is to canvass everyone to become devotees of God. That is the sum and substance of a real guru's business. Indeed, he has no other business. He tells whomever he sees, "Please become God conscious." Somehow or other if he canvasses on behalf of God and tries to get everyone to become a devotee of God, he is a genuine guru. So have you noted the definition of guru?

 

Interviewer: What about a Christian priest?

 

Prabhupada: Christian, Mohammedan, it doesn't matter. If he is simply speaking on behalf of God, he is a guru. Lord Jesus Christ, for instance, canvassed people, saying, "Just become a lover of God." Anyone-it doesn't matter who be he Hindu, Muslim or Christian, is a guru if he convinces people to become lovers of God. That is the test. The guru never says, "I am God," or, "I will make you God." The real guru says, "I am a servant of God, and I will make you too a servant of God." It doesn't matter how one is dressed. As Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "Whoever can impart knowledge about Krsna is a spiritual master." He does not say that the spiritual master is a person who always wants money and sells mantras. The genuine guru is not interested in collecting money but in getting people to become devotees of Krsna, or God. He has no other business.

 

Interviewer: But the bad gurus

 

Prabhupada: If you understand what a genuine guru is, why are you trying to understand the opposite?

 

Interviewer: I was trying to understand how one can recognize a bad guru.

 

Prabhupada: And what is a bad guru?

 

Interviewer: A bad guru just wants some money or some fame.

 

Prabhupada: Well, if he is bad, how does he become the guru? (laughter) How can iron be gold or gold be iron? Actually a guru cannot be bad, for if he is bad he cannot be guru. You cannot say "bad guru." That is a contradiction. You may say "false guru." But that is not so important. What you have to do is simply try to understand what a genuine guru is. The definition of a genuine guru is that he is simply talking about God, that's all. If he's talking about some other nonsense, then he is not a guru. A guru cannot be bad. There is no question of a bad guru any more than there's a red guru or a white guru. Guru is guru. All we have to know is that the genuine guru is simply talking about God and trying to get people to become God's devotees. If he does this, he is genuine. Is that point clear?

 

Interviewer: Yes. Thank you very much.

 

© Bhaktivedanta Book Trust